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What I'd like to see

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White Cornerback
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What I'd like to see

Post by White Cornerback » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:18 am

I figured coming into the end of my second season (well S1 was really half a season by the time I took over the Chiefs) that I'd just give a little feedback/suggestions on what I'd like to see in the league. Simply enough I'm going to split it up into forums and then communications based suggestions. For warning, all of this is just my personal opinion on how it stands.

- Site

(Driving Activity)
Again this one is obviously paramount to the league. It however is a tough one because of the majority of our activity being split through three mediums, being the forums itself, the actual in-game screens itself and then the slack channel. As it stands right now, we have very low levels of interaction on the forum outside of occasional media and 2-3 comments on trades (unless somebody's been shafted) or a game update required. We need to drive activity on the forums but there needs to be an incentive to do so. Areas we need to get active in regards to are:

- This subsection, forum ideas. We need guys to offer up their insight to possible tweaks/additions/suggestions to improve/aid the league. We do a great job already at retention of GM's in the CSFL (unsure about the college league since I'm not apart of it) but we need to get feedback and suggestions to move forward.

- Would it be possible to get something like a round up show going that's weekly? Currently our only form of media (beyond the occasional spot media) is Cleasby's consistent podcast. Could we get a consistent wrap up show weekly? Actually I might do this myself even if it's just a text piece or something on Canva or a mix of the two.

- Could we get a semi regular group effort with one of them online magazine editors going? Maybe something like each GM writes a piece on a player or their team or a certain theme that week, Just shooting out ideas.

- Could we implement further integration with twitter and our forums? Again I'm unsure backend what the capabilities of our board are and if it's similar to invision/jcink or not.

- Would it be possible to maybe open up spots for new guys to join as Head Coaches of teams along with GM's? Currently we've seen it with a few teams where they bring a guy onboard as a HC/CO-GM. It could be a cool mechanic for guys to be taken on as HC's or OC/DC's setting strats and DC's alongside their GM and moving elswhere to GM their own team after an impressive season or an opening well opens up. Plus you can get some guys maybe on the waiting list into the league earlier. Or even you can get dynamics of guys who are active in the college league take a GM/HC role in the big leagues.

- Build up the lore. A major part of these leagues (I feel) is building the lore/history of the league and tracking our history. At the moment we just track our season award winners and stats etc is pulled from the sim itself or exported via csv and this is fine for now but I know for a fact that when it comes to the end of a players career (despite what the devs have said themselves said) will flat out dissappear, I'm not talking about guys who are scrubs and played 1-2 seasons in the league and called it a day. I'm talking longterm vets/potential HOF'ers I've seen deleted from my long term files and made un clickable. We don't want to lose that history here, especially when it's a huge part going forward. Would it be possible that every year after our Superbowl, we get the index updated and saved so you look at season specific indexes from 2011/2012/2013 etc.

- Expansion would be pretty cool. Yeah I know we pride ourselves on being a simulation league set in 2011 (2012/2013) now but it would be pretty tight to further down the line have expansion teams added to the league to bring up the userbase of GM's and activity. Again with all the above, we need to incentivise content, but how if it's not created organically?

- Sim days. At the moment we operate on 2 sims a week, (ignoring preseason which I think lasted a week and the draft which was during christmas so it took fuckin ages) @ 2 sims a week our season lasts 9 weeks with playoffs. That's a fairly big chunk of time when you add the playoffs is another week, with preseason taking 1-2 moreand you're into 3 months territory. Add in the draft and you're at what 14-15 weeks. Would it be possible to adopt a 3 sims a week system? Maybe SUN-TUE-THUR? Beyond having less time to export sims and there might have to be another guy handling the file in terms of the guys workload/schedule, I can't see the argument against 3 sims a week. (beyond the time needed to fix and create real life draft classes, but couldn't we give out entire sections to each GM to edit/proof they're correct as a GM duty?)

- Communications

(Discord)
So currently we use slack for communication for the league which originally started off as an addition to the league and I'd gauge activity was 80/20 in favor of the forums. That's sorta flipped now and it's 10/90 with slack being used as the primary method for interaction with the league, again that's fine. At first I hated slack because everything in it felt so clunky plus I couldnt figure out how to get slackbot to fuck off messaging be, eventually though I got used to it but I wouldn't mind a switch to discord which I feel is definetly easier for talking with others about the league and a whole host of other things. A lot more user friendly and you can do alot more with it but over time I've become okay with using slack since I'm using it for work too.

(Active on Slack)
Currently there's no rule stating you have to be signed up to slack, which I believe should change. I think the league should enforce that you have to have a slack account and at the very least be active on it. As the leagues primary form of communication, I think you should be active on it or atleast signed up and in the server at the bare minimum. Especially when the alternative is F5'ing and responding via the PM interaction on the forum which I've found myself a couple of times doesn't send the reply/message you send. I can count on both hands the amount of times I've messaged a guy on forums & slack and not even gotten a reply in return and seen the same guys respond to something later on the forums because they don't even open their slack.

(Messages Limit)
I'm not sure what the deal is with it paywalling messages sent beyond a certain limit and I checked the pay plans expecting it to be a certain amount per month but it's actually per person per month which is wild to me that alli it gives you is the ability to see your own messages that you posted beyond a certain date which is sus at best. Another reason I'd opt for another route like a move to discord but again it might not be a big deal that you can't see certain messages beyond a certain date.

Again anything on this piece is purely my own opinion but I would love to see comments below about any of it or even any of you fellow GM's suggestions for the league.

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Zac22m
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by Zac22m » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:16 am

Just want to comment on the three sims item for now. You asked the argument against. I think the biggest argument against would be having three sims I would think could have a negative impact for some in regards to league content and engagement. You talked about others helping with a weekly show, articles, etc which all require time between sims. More sims would really stretch some thin. I think if we want teams to be more engaged and produce more communication and content between sims, adding more sims could be counterproductive. Just my thought but I agree with the general message of it all for sure. I’m all for trying to encourage more content and engagement.

Regarding sims though, There are some parts that do seem really slow (later parts of free agency, maybe sim pre-season on back to back nights? etc).

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emplep7
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by emplep7 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:18 pm

Not a fan of forcing everyone on slack as I think of you go that route you should just get rid of the forum all together. I’ve found those chats sometimes cause a detriment to the league since the activity is only there and not on the forums.

I think if you want to see activity on the forum you get rid of the side chat all together until you build up the activity on the forum after a few more seasons. Otherwise, activity will continue as it has.

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Cleasby
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by Cleasby » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:45 pm

Just a quick one to note we are not ignoring this but discussing the constructive comments here. As always we appreciate new ideas and feedback.

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White Cornerback
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by White Cornerback » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:49 pm

Zac22m wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:16 am
Just want to comment on the three sims item for now. You asked the argument against. I think the biggest argument against would be having three sims I would think could have a negative impact for some in regards to league content and engagement. You talked about others helping with a weekly show, articles, etc which all require time between sims. More sims would really stretch some thin. I think if we want teams to be more engaged and produce more communication and content between sims, adding more sims could be counterproductive. Just my thought but I agree with the general message of it all for sure. I’m all for trying to encourage more content and engagement.

Regarding sims though, There are some parts that do seem really slow (later parts of free agency, maybe sim pre-season on back to back nights? etc).
Yeah that's definetly a fair point plus I didn't take into account additionally how some guys might not be able to get in and set strats just with that 1/2 ish day window. FWIW when I meant weekly show I meant like IRL weekly as opposed to sim week 1/2/3 etc.

Yeah I'd like to see free agency or preseason sims sped up a bit. Last year was a little bit of an outlier though since F/A will be a little more stacked this time around I think.

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White Cornerback
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by White Cornerback » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:54 pm

emplep7 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:18 pm
Not a fan of forcing everyone on slack as I think of you go that route you should just get rid of the forum all together. I’ve found those chats sometimes cause a detriment to the league since the activity is only there and not on the forums.

I think if you want to see activity on the forum you get rid of the side chat all together until you build up the activity on the forum after a few more seasons. Otherwise, activity will continue as it has.
To me the forum is a place where you're checking on articles, announcements or trades that have been posted and it's acting in that official capacity, as in everything that goes up on it in one way or another is official. Alot of the stuff like trades is worked out behind scenes in slack, I think removing the side chat (slack) wont be just revert back to gm's not getting to know eachother and end up with generic comments on the same lackluster level of engagement that we have now like "wow great trade for x"" and "hope you enjoy player y" followed by a ghost town until the next sim.

I feel as though we've got a pretty good community and that's no doubt down to the engagement we're getting in slack both in a shitpost-y way but also in terms of talking shop with trades etc. To me it's just a matter of incentivising people to engage on the forums with stuff that otherwise would go into the slack channel (like media, insights and non shitpost-y stuff) and I don't feel that killing off the primary method of organic communication to create a form of artificial engagement on forums would do that.

NOppenheimer
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by NOppenheimer » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:57 am

I don't see what the need for forum activity is? I guess it might help draw people to the league if they see a super active forum but otherwise...? In just about every league I've been in for any game that has both a chat and a forum, the chat always wins out. The only time I've seen an active forum is when there's no chat or its a really shitty one built into the forum. Which to me says that chat is simply a better method of communication for most things.

Also I would just like to point out that we should feel extremely lucky to have a league that is currently 100% human owned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no other DDSPF league is really even close to that at the moment.
DENVER BRONCOS GM 2011-Present

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Flaming Homer
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by Flaming Homer » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:27 pm

emplep7 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:18 pm
Not a fan of forcing everyone on slack as I think of you go that route you should just get rid of the forum all together. I’ve found those chats sometimes cause a detriment to the league since the activity is only there and not on the forums.

I think if you want to see activity on the forum you get rid of the side chat all together until you build up the activity on the forum after a few more seasons. Otherwise, activity will continue as it has.
Totally agree

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Rizzo
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by Rizzo » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:22 pm

First off, the admins want to thank you for raising up all these points! This "League Ideas" forum is here for things exactly like this. Any idea you may have, whether well thought out or not, should be thrown in here for the league to discuss and figure out if it's worth pursuing or not. Everyone should feel free and comfortable to share their ideas with the league.

I'm going to respond to all of your points in the quote.
White Cornerback wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:18 am
- Site

(Driving Activity)
Again this one is obviously paramount to the league. It however is a tough one because of the majority of our activity being split through three mediums, being the forums itself, the actual in-game screens itself and then the slack channel. As it stands right now, we have very low levels of interaction on the forum outside of occasional media and 2-3 comments on trades (unless somebody's been shafted) or a game update required. We need to drive activity on the forums but there needs to be an incentive to do so. Areas we need to get active in regards to are:

This league basically branched off of the basketball league - CSL - and was shaped like it with one MAJOR difference: this league has zero media requirements. To be a member of the football league, you are not required to write any articles, respond to sim result threads or create podcasts. You just need to actively manage your team. In the basketball league, creating some sort of media is a necessity for being a manager. It also allows you to earn scouting points to scout players in the upcoming draft.

For the basketball league, I created our own custom web app for all the GMs to scout the incoming rookies. If I ever get around to it and find a way to basically clone that web app for this league, then we could shift to that system. Until then, we don't have our own scouting system nor do we have a media requirement.

The admins were very reluctant to start a Slack channel for the league but we did anyways. I think we can all agree that the activity on the Slack channel has been amazing thus far and continues to grow with each passing season. Unfortunately, it does take away from the activity here on the forums. We also do not make being part of the Slack channel a requirement either. That was in hopes to make it so that some of the traffic stayed here on the forums.

Clearly this system is not working in terms of generating traffic here on the forums. A media requirement would definitely make it more active here on the forums, but then do we risk the possibility of losing GMs? Is that a risk we are willing to take?


- This subsection, forum ideas. We need guys to offer up their insight to possible tweaks/additions/suggestions to improve/aid the league. We do a great job already at retention of GM's in the CSFL (unsure about the college league since I'm not apart of it) but we need to get feedback and suggestions to move forward.

I thanked you above but cannot thank you enough. People need to use this forum freely! Especially with those bastard Patriots grabbing the #1 seed, it's time for the GMs to come up with a new lottery system to right the wrongs of the world and knock the Pats down another peg!

- Would it be possible to get something like a round up show going that's weekly? Currently our only form of media (beyond the occasional spot media) is Cleasby's consistent podcast. Could we get a consistent wrap up show weekly? Actually I might do this myself even if it's just a text piece or something on Canva or a mix of the two.

Cleasby and Josh have been fantastic with their podcast thus far, but I know that it can be very time consuming. To add a weekly wrapup show would be even more work, but any GM can step up and make it their own if they wanted! Also, if we made creating media a requirement, this would be much more feasible. Until then, it's going to be up to GMs to use their free time to write/create something for the league.

- Could we get a semi regular group effort with one of them online magazine editors going? Maybe something like each GM writes a piece on a player or their team or a certain theme that week, Just shooting out ideas.

I'm not really sure what you mean by online magazine editors, but I'd love to hear more about it. Woudl be great to have a pre-season magazine every year where one GM from each division does a spot on all four teams as well as players to watch or something of that ilk. Again, great idea and keep them coming! PM me with more details if you want to pursue this further!

- Could we implement further integration with twitter and our forums? Again I'm unsure backend what the capabilities of our board are and if it's similar to invision/jcink or not.

I know we have the Twitter integration over on the basketball side. I can ask around there to see if they could set it up here for us as well.

- Would it be possible to maybe open up spots for new guys to join as Head Coaches of teams along with GM's? Currently we've seen it with a few teams where they bring a guy onboard as a HC/CO-GM. It could be a cool mechanic for guys to be taken on as HC's or OC/DC's setting strats and DC's alongside their GM and moving elswhere to GM their own team after an impressive season or an opening well opens up. Plus you can get some guys maybe on the waiting list into the league earlier. Or even you can get dynamics of guys who are active in the college league take a GM/HC role in the big leagues.

We do have this kind of system in place where I've had many people reach out to me when the league is full. I ask if they want to try to be an assistant GM to someone else to get involved and then grab a team when they open up. Unfortunately, it's always been a "no" from them. I still think it's a great idea, especially for anyone who is new to sim leagues and wants to learn the ropes before taking over their own franchise.

- Build up the lore. A major part of these leagues (I feel) is building the lore/history of the league and tracking our history. At the moment we just track our season award winners and stats etc is pulled from the sim itself or exported via csv and this is fine for now but I know for a fact that when it comes to the end of a players career (despite what the devs have said themselves said) will flat out dissappear, I'm not talking about guys who are scrubs and played 1-2 seasons in the league and called it a day. I'm talking longterm vets/potential HOF'ers I've seen deleted from my long term files and made un clickable. We don't want to lose that history here, especially when it's a huge part going forward. Would it be possible that every year after our Superbowl, we get the index updated and saved so you look at season specific indexes from 2011/2012/2013 etc.

Not quite sure what you mean by Indexes, but are you talking about something like I did for the college league HERE? I can honestly admit we as an admin team messed up by archiving the HTML and league file from the 2010 season. From here on out, we will be doing that every season to make sure we have access to all files and HTML pages in case stuff like you mentioned were to happen in out league.

- Expansion would be pretty cool. Yeah I know we pride ourselves on being a simulation league set in 2011 (2012/2013) now but it would be pretty tight to further down the line have expansion teams added to the league to bring up the userbase of GM's and activity. Again with all the above, we need to incentivise content, but how if it's not created organically?

If we reach the point where we are full for a few consecutive seasons without much/any turnover on the GM side, maybe expansion is something we can explore. I honestly don't even know if the engine supports expansion, but I could see it being a possibility in the future but cannot guarantee anything. Also, incentivizing content I touched upon above.

- Sim days. At the moment we operate on 2 sims a week, (ignoring preseason which I think lasted a week and the draft which was during christmas so it took fuckin ages) @ 2 sims a week our season lasts 9 weeks with playoffs. That's a fairly big chunk of time when you add the playoffs is another week, with preseason taking 1-2 moreand you're into 3 months territory. Add in the draft and you're at what 14-15 weeks. Would it be possible to adopt a 3 sims a week system? Maybe SUN-TUE-THUR? Beyond having less time to export sims and there might have to be another guy handling the file in terms of the guys workload/schedule, I can't see the argument against 3 sims a week. (beyond the time needed to fix and create real life draft classes, but couldn't we give out entire sections to each GM to edit/proof they're correct as a GM duty?)

We have heard quite a few times already in the first two seasons about the number of days we sim and this is pretty non-negotiable on the part of the admins. We are so flexible with pretty much everything in this league...except this. It's not a matter of work of the actual simming on a day-to-day basis. The reason why is because we are trying to utilize REAL PLAYERS for as long as possible before introducing completely fictional classes. This is the reason we started in the year 2010 to allow us to create draft classes with real player to slowly introduce into the league.

Right now, we are utilizing two NFL draft classes (with undrafted players from those classes) to create three CSFL draft classes. We are actually exploring the ability to use one NFL draft class to create two CSFL draft classes to keep us from running out of real life players for a longer period of time. This is the major reason why we are in favor of keeping the league at a slower pace.

Also, with a slower pace, it allows people more time to create media. ;)


- Communications

(Discord)
So currently we use slack for communication for the league which originally started off as an addition to the league and I'd gauge activity was 80/20 in favor of the forums. That's sorta flipped now and it's 10/90 with slack being used as the primary method for interaction with the league, again that's fine. At first I hated slack because everything in it felt so clunky plus I couldnt figure out how to get slackbot to fuck off messaging be, eventually though I got used to it but I wouldn't mind a switch to discord which I feel is definetly easier for talking with others about the league and a whole host of other things. A lot more user friendly and you can do alot more with it but over time I've become okay with using slack since I'm using it for work too.

We are on Slack because that's where the admins first started creating the league with difference channels. Selfishly, I prefer Slack over Discord because I cannot access Discord at work due to being blocked by the network, which would not allow me to interact with you guys and the admin team when on the clock. :lol:

(Active on Slack)
Currently there's no rule stating you have to be signed up to slack, which I believe should change. I think the league should enforce that you have to have a slack account and at the very least be active on it. As the leagues primary form of communication, I think you should be active on it or atleast signed up and in the server at the bare minimum. Especially when the alternative is F5'ing and responding via the PM interaction on the forum which I've found myself a couple of times doesn't send the reply/message you send. I can count on both hands the amount of times I've messaged a guy on forums & slack and not even gotten a reply in return and seen the same guys respond to something later on the forums because they don't even open their slack.

Forcing people to be on the Slack means that we should just move away from the forums and make Slack the only form of communication. I'm not sure that's the direction the admin team wants to go because then you lose ALL ability to create media content for the league. I would imagine the admin team could be convinced otherwise but as of right now we are not requiring people to be on the Slack channel.

(Messages Limit)
I'm not sure what the deal is with it paywalling messages sent beyond a certain limit and I checked the pay plans expecting it to be a certain amount per month but it's actually per person per month which is wild to me that alli it gives you is the ability to see your own messages that you posted beyond a certain date which is sus at best. Another reason I'd opt for another route like a move to discord but again it might not be a big deal that you can't see certain messages beyond a certain date.

It is pretty crappy that it removes older messages, but I'm not sure how many of those old messages you would need on a regular basis. I also don't think we would be willing to pay that type of money for the Slack channel. I know this is another point in Discord's favor, but right now a league chat is not a requirement so I think what we have is working great for keeping us together and interacting.

Again anything on this piece is purely my own opinion but I would love to see comments below about any of it or even any of you fellow GM's suggestions for the league.
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damoore46
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by damoore46 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:47 pm

Well here is my 2 cents (and keep in mind this is MY opinion):

1. Concerning the number of games simmed per week - I think it depends on the objective of the league. If the objective is to move as fast as possible through time, then I suppose it will be great when we get to the 24th century and can draft the sons of Star Trek characters. What I enjoy most is a slower paced game to make you really think about the decisions you make and how they affect the outcomes of games. In my opinion, this is not a action video game, and therefore does not require a blazing fast pace to enjoy the play.

2. Communications - I feel that they could be better. I do not like Slack at all, and am only on there when I was working with Gary to develop the docs for the 2020 Basketball game. I don't like how its laid out either. If I had a preference, then it would be discord, although for me, its not the best either. I am in another league where we draft using that, and its good for that as well. I am not a Steam user, and I never know when an updated version of the game comes out until I read it in the Sim threads that we are on a new release, and my uploads have either failed, or are on the wrong version. It would be good if we even EXPANDED the communication trees to including emails and such for important announcements. I do not have a laptop, and do not have a job where I am at a computer all day to look at Slack, or Discord. I think you are correct that the board here should be the primary official communication platform.

3. I know that its been mentioned in another thread, but the lottery system for the draft is a real buzzkill for me. I am doing the best I can, and even though I should be drafting earlier, I am at #14 this year, and was at #15 last year. I feel that I am being penalized for starting with a bad team, and do not see a way clear of that. In my opinion, if you do draft early and get a few star players, it will eventually work that you will win a few more games and will then draft lower anyway. Even if you purposely "tank", at some point the good players will make you start to win anyway.

4. I understand the "immersion" thing, and I get it. However, we are all not blessed with great imaginations and writing skills to have a mandatory write up for various things. If you want me to be an owner, or GM fine, but I am really not a journalist, nor do I want to be.

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emplep7
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by emplep7 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:02 pm

Thanks for the response Adam!

I think you guys are looking at this the right way and what I'm learning is the Basketball and Football crowds are very different and it will force you guys to make some adjustment away from how the Basketball league is run and make it your own. You guys will figure it out, but this is always a speed bump that new leagues face.

I'm definitely more old school due to my basketball league roots and how we run the CSL, but these are very different leagues as they should be. I do think the pace is perfectly fine and allows you to tinker more with your team, but do think having some minimum forum activity requirement (sim results responses or team previews/reviews at a minimum) would help make the forum a more active place in the long haul and not take away from anyone on Slack.

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drumr
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Re: What I'd like to see

Post by drumr » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:12 am

I think even 1 sim result response a week is a fair minimum. It's like a checkin and honestly you could write:

We won/lost to _____ today.
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